I( can'r win.. Starting issues

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17 May 2025 08:49 #22914 by aardvark
I( can'r win.. Starting issues was created by aardvark
So I took off this morning to the Gas Station, filled up and the car wouldn't start. 
I can't win here. So I was stranded. 
It tries but the thing acts like it's flooded. 
Is there a cold vs warm start thing going on? 
Can I shoot a little ether down the intake? (last time I tried that, I damned near has a  airbox fire)

The Car runs very rich... I keep it cleaned out by running it hard under load and keeping the rpm's up.

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17 May 2025 12:12 #22915 by aardvark
Replied by aardvark on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
Update.
I waited about 43 hours and went back to start the car.. It started like normal.
I have to think it has to do with a cold/hot situation.

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18 May 2025 18:44 #22916 by NickTucker42
Replied by NickTucker42 on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
What year is your car?

If you have a later car (32V) then I would certainly look at the MAF as they do "wear".  Along with that the condition of the connector.  If it's an earlier car then hopefully someone with experience will chime in.

Something to keep in mind with the age of these cars now is the engine wiring harness.  They are getting old and brittle and can lead to all sorts of gremlins that will be super hard to nail down.  Not saying that's the issue here but you never know.  The big 14 pin connector over by the positive jump post can also be a pain point.

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18 May 2025 20:50 #22917 by aardvark
Replied by aardvark on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
car is a '82'.
 

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20 May 2025 06:47 - 20 May 2025 06:54 #22918 by aardvark
Replied by aardvark on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
The car has Gremlins alright.
I can't understand how to lean out the running of the engine. It is just running WAY To Rich.
I don't know if that has something to do with cold vs hot starts, but common sense would say it runs richer when cold as a rule.. Then heated up the start issues ensue.

So the question is running into a 2 part scenario.
Why the hot starts are so hard,, (if not impossible.) ?
How to dial back the fuel mix?

Also above... I mis-typed.. The car did start after 3-4 hours of cooling down... Not 34..
Last edit: 20 May 2025 06:54 by aardvark.

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20 May 2025 20:24 #22919 by NickTucker42
Replied by NickTucker42 on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
I must repeat that I don't have any experience with the earlier cars, however I do know they have a cold start valve that feeds extra fuel when cold.  Similar to a choke I suspect.

I could see a scenario where starting from cold the extra fuel is needed to start the engine and keep it running, but once hot the extra fuel could cause issues including hard starting.  Same thing happens on my lawn mower if I run too much choke when the engine is hot.

Again, that's just a guess on my part, but could explain the running rich.  

Have you posted this question on Rennlist?  rennlist.com/forums/a-69/

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21 May 2025 12:03 #22920 by aardvark
Replied by aardvark on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
It must be the choke (or in this case cold start) is staying on. The rich burn smell never goes away..
Thanks for the input. 
 

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22 May 2025 19:30 #22922 by Rich928
Replied by Rich928 on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
There is no choke on a fuel injected engine.  This 1985 - 1986 generation 928 uses the first generation of digital fuel (LH) and spark control (EZF).  The air/fuel ratio are managed by:

1. A presumed fuel pressure.  The system requires a precise fuel pressure to operate.  Also, the fuel pressure regulator and/or damper can leak unmetered fuel into the intake manifold causing an over-rich air/fuel ratio.

2. Coolant Temperate sensor (AKA Temp II sensor).  Both the LH and EZF modules obtain engine temperature from this single sensor.  If it reports the wrong temperature (it has a reverse coefficient of resistance), The fuel injection system may inject the wrong amount of fuel for the existing engine temperature.

3. Mass Airflow Sensor (MAF).  This system uses a hot wire heat and control to provide an accurate representation of the mass of air flowing into the engine.  The LH injection module uses this measurement to calculate how much fuel to inject.  A failing MAF can result in too little or too much fuel to be injected.  The hot wire glows red after each driving cycle to clean off contaminants.  After a few decades of use, the resistance of the hot wire changes and the MAF drifts out of calibration.  Replacing the MAF is a normal service item and should be tested every 60,000 to 80,000 miles to verify proper operation.

4. Fuel injector flow: A leaking or improper spray pattern can result in improper running.  The fix is to clean them and have them flow tested and replace if necessary.

5. LH Fuel Injection module: this computer takes in all the inputs and calculated the exact fuel necessary for the engine temperature range and power demands.  If it fails, it normally doesn't work at all or injects the improper amount of fuel.

A qualified mechanic can diagnose failure in these items.  The operation of the LH and MAF modules can be tested and repaired as needed.

Rich
Membership Chairman
Charter Member
1993 928 GTS Cover Girl
1987 928 S4
1979 928 5-speed rescue
1979 928 5-liter track beast

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22 May 2025 22:31 #22923 by aardvark
Replied by aardvark on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
Rich. 
Your last sentence is an issue here.
I haven't found a "Qualified Mechanic'' ' in this general area.

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22 May 2025 23:27 - 22 May 2025 23:28 #22924 by Rich928
Replied by Rich928 on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
Where are you located?  Someone may be able to suggest one.  I can imagine a mechanic familiar with mid 1980s European cars may understand this generation of Bosch engine control systems.  Volvo and Saab used similar systems.
 

Rich
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1993 928 GTS Cover Girl
1987 928 S4
1979 928 5-speed rescue
1979 928 5-liter track beast
Last edit: 22 May 2025 23:28 by Rich928.

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23 May 2025 00:01 #22925 by aardvark
Replied by aardvark on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
Thanks and I appreciate it, but I've got to move fast on this.

I'm west of Asheville N.C..by about an hour.
There is a shop in Asheville but the distance is cause for concern. There is also a shop in Waynesville but they have a 3 month waiting list.
I just can' wait 3 months for an appointment, 

At this time, I'm trying to get the car up "For Sale" . I can't wait 3 months and am willing to reduce the price so the next Owner can address this issue.
I'm always open with Buyers on issues. Maybe too honest for my own good, but it's the right thing.
I hate having to sell it, but personal finances are entering into the mix, and She's gotta go.
Feels like a bad divorce to me, She's fighting me every step of the way.

The Car only has 46,000 miles on Her and She's definitely a looker.    

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23 May 2025 02:04 #22926 by Rich928
Replied by Rich928 on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
The closest shop to you that I've interfaced with is Top Auto located SW of Charlotte in Indian Trail. There are very good shops Digital Chassis in Durham, NC and Howard Wright in Atlanta, GA.  

These may be too distant.  So I suggest that you call local independent shops that work on older Volvos or Saabs and ask if they'd take a look at your 928.

 

Rich
Membership Chairman
Charter Member
1993 928 GTS Cover Girl
1987 928 S4
1979 928 5-speed rescue
1979 928 5-liter track beast

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23 May 2025 05:18 - 23 May 2025 05:19 #22927 by aardvark
Replied by aardvark on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
Thanks Rich... 
All of those are at least 3+ hours from me.
I do thank You for the response, but they are not sensical for me.

 
Last edit: 23 May 2025 05:19 by aardvark.

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08 Jun 2025 10:05 #22933 by pasha
Replied by pasha on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
Hi , I had a similar issue. Last year when I purchased the car the A/C conked out, and I fortunately had a mechanic that could fix it properly . i explained the start issue  to him you similarly have.
He said the older cars and the wiring gremlins they are starting to have. 

The answer " The factory theft deterrent system does not always reset it self when you try to restart the car"   he said to exit the car and lock the door with the key. Wait a couple seconds and ideally look for the flashing of the system being armed. Then reopen with the key and start as normal. works for me now. 

I have a 90 928S4 .  My first posting. 


 

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08 Jun 2025 11:35 #22934 by aardvark
Replied by aardvark on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
Interesting but I've never seen any sign of a theft deterrent system.
Is there a flashing dash light or the likes to determine if I even have such thing?

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08 Jun 2025 12:14 #22935 by Rich928
Replied by Rich928 on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
A US-Spec 1982 Porsche 928 has the L-Jetronic fuel injection system.  It is analog system, not digital.  The spark system is a simple transistorized triggered unit off an Hall effect sensor in the base of the distributor.  The air/fuel ratio is set at a vane-type airflow sensor.  It has mechanical elements to it that can cause problems too.  A flooding out over-rich condition to me sounds like a leaking fuel pressure regulator/damper or leaking fuel injectors.  However the L-Jet injection module could also be failing.  Hard hot start can be caused by fuel flooding in when the engine is turned off.   Also if fuel system is not holding pressure, the fuel in the lines can vaporize causing vapor-lock (a more common problem on older cars).  There is a check-valve in the fuel pump that can allow pressure to leak-down. There are factory workshop manual with a lot of information.  The older L-Jet systems are quite reliable however in 43 years components can fail.  In my opinion the only way to find and fix the problems is a complete check-out system by system.  Likely most of the rubber hoses and components need to be replaced due to age.

Rich
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1993 928 GTS Cover Girl
1987 928 S4
1979 928 5-speed rescue
1979 928 5-liter track beast

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11 Jun 2025 12:56 - 11 Jun 2025 13:06 #22940 by Rich928
Replied by Rich928 on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
There is a Temp II sensor that should be check out.  Also, the L-Jetronic fuel injection uses a cold start valve.  See this document for specifics.   

Rich
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Charter Member
1993 928 GTS Cover Girl
1987 928 S4
1979 928 5-speed rescue
1979 928 5-liter track beast

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Last edit: 11 Jun 2025 13:06 by Rich928.

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11 Jun 2025 13:01 #22941 by aardvark
Replied by aardvark on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
Thanks but...
There is no cold start issue and the car runs rich all the time.

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11 Jun 2025 23:09 #22943 by Rich928
Replied by Rich928 on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
The  issue is if the Temp II sensor indicates a cold engine when it is actually warm, the ECU "thinks" the engine is cold and will inject too much fuel.

Rich
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1993 928 GTS Cover Girl
1987 928 S4
1979 928 5-speed rescue
1979 928 5-liter track beast

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12 Jun 2025 05:59 #22944 by aardvark
Replied by aardvark on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
So what does this sensor look like and where is it?

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12 Jun 2025 08:40 #22945 by Rich928
Replied by Rich928 on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
Look at the previous document that I posted, all the information is there.

Rich
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1993 928 GTS Cover Girl
1987 928 S4
1979 928 5-speed rescue
1979 928 5-liter track beast

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12 Jun 2025 09:55 #22946 by aardvark
Replied by aardvark on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
Thanks..Found it.
I'm just going to go ahead and replace the sensor ... it can't cost much.
I could test it I suppose but what the heck,,I'll  just switch the thing out.


 

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16 Jun 2025 08:27 #22948 by aardvark
Replied by aardvark on topic I( can'r win.. Starting issues
Well, Rich..
I replaced the sensor.. it does work and when the car warms the black smoke lessens but it' still WAAAAY too rich burning.
I'm pretty much out of time and options.

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